You can hate the playa or you can hate the game, but don’t hate the Wheel of Time Reread Redux, y’all! It just wants to be your friend.
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 21 and 22 of The Great Hunt, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 21: The Nine Rings
Redux Commentary
“Daes Dae’mar, Lord Rand,” Hurin said. “The Great Game. The Game of Houses, some call it. This Caldevwin thinks you must be doing something to your advantage or you wouldn’t be here. And whatever you’re doing might be to his disadvantage, so he has to be careful.”
Given the other blog series I’m running on Tor.com these days, it’s fairly inevitable, this time around, that I will have to compare and contrast WOT’s Game of Houses with ASOIAF’s Game of Thrones. Especially since I suspect that the latter is at least partially an homage to the former—just taken to the nth degree.
There are a lot of differences between the two, obviously, and those differences are just as emblematic of the differences between the two series as a whole as they are of this aspect of them in particular. The best way I can come up with to summarize the fundamental difference is, WOT’s Game of Houses is vicious the way “politics in Washington D.C.” are vicious, while Martin’s Game of Thrones is vicious the way “rival inner city gangs having a drug war” is vicious. The Wire as opposed to The West Wing, one might say. (The characters in The Wire even called it “the game,” in case you wanted more parallels, which is why I know I’ve compared it to ASOIAF before.)
Or, you know, what I think most people say is Martin’s actual primary inspiration for the series’ political storyline, the Wars of the Roses. Which was a type of “politics” fairly far removed from the comparative civility of the “infighting” of today’s U.S. government—at least as long as you discard various conspiracy theories regarding the latter, heh.
I think there is a sense that a lot of people consider Martin’s version to be the more “realistic,” basically because it is the more bloodthirsty and violent of the two. And there’s a certain amount of merit to that, because God knows we know people can be epically cruel and shitty to each other when the environment’s right for it. But that’s also part of the equation: the environment.
While set in what many people probably think of as a pseudo-medieval milieu, Jordan’s WOT is actually not “medieval” at all, at least not in the sense that I was taught that term in school. As I’ve noted before, Randland is much more late European Renaissance than it is Middle Ages, as evidenced by things like the presence of widespread literacy, the existence of things like printing presses and clocks, and (later) the nascent development of gunpowder firearms and steam technology.
But more than that, WOT’s various ruling bodies, even the most corrupt ones (as usual I’m excluding the Seanchan for reasons), seem to subscribe to a more, shall we say, restrained version of political conflict, that smacks much more of modern times in the real world than otherwise—perhaps as a holdover from the still dimly-remembered peace of the Age of Legends, or perhaps as evidence of the overarching and conflict-dampening influence of the White Tower. Ergo, the primary weapon of Daes Dae’mar is words, rather than swords. This isn’t to say things can’t devolve into bloody conflict in Randland (because they can, and do, obviously), but as a general rule things have to get pretty extreme before that happens—even on the eve of an impending apocalypse, it seems.
Whereas Martin’s ASOIAF, on the other hand, is “medieval” in pretty much every sense of the word. Including the Pulp Fiction one. Ergo, it’s a world in which swords trump words to such an extent that hardly anyone has even bothered to notice their own impending apocalypse. Good job, guys.
But that’s a rant for a different blog! My point is, I don’t necessarily see either “game” as being superior to or more “realistic” than the other, so much as I think that they are each apropos to their own respective settings (and overall tone). Daes Dae’mar’s subtle dance of verbal barbs and covert scheming in gilded halls would suit the bludgeon-like brutality of ASOIAF about as well as nipples on a Batsuit, and the reverse is also true. In My Opinion, Of Course.
Chapter 22: Watchers
Redux Commentary
Moiraine sniffed. “Your humility, Lan Gaidin, has always been more arrogance than most kings could manage with their armies at their backs. From the first day I met you, it has been so.”
If there’s a more awesomely accurate summation of a person’s character in the series than this, I can’t think of it offhand.
“So. Not a pet but a parcel. Myrelle is to be a—a caretaker! Moiraine, not even the Greens treat their Warders so. No Aes Sedai has passed her Warder’s bond to another in four hundred years, but you intend to do it to me not once, but twice!”
I’m sort of surprised that I didn’t get into this aspect of Lan and Moiraine’s argument the first time around, but I suspect that I didn’t ignore it so much as decide to shunt the topic off to a later date, which is a thing I sometimes do if I know it’s going to come up again. And since the whole Warder bond thing is a subject veritably riddled with consent issues, and one that comes up multiple times throughout the series, well, I probably figured I didn’t have to tackle everything at once.
And I know I must have tackled it later, even if at the moment I may not precisely remember what I said. If I had to make a guess, though, I’d bet the phrase “fundamentally unequal partnership” and possibly “seriously not cool” was in there somewhere. Because I devoutly hope that it’s been made very clear by this point that I have, shall we say, strong feelings about taking away a person’s ability to consent, and it’s pretty hard to argue that the Warder bond isn’t an example of exactly that.
And not even so much because of the “compel” aspect of the bond, even though that is quite squicky enough on its own, thank you, but the apparent lack of disclosure about that aspect beforehand. It’s hella shady in my opinion, but nevertheless, you could make an argument that the “compel” bit is not a violation of the Warder’s personal freedom so long as he knows about it beforehand and agrees to go through with the bond anyway. Maybe. But no way does it fly ethically if the guy doesn’t even know it’s possible until it’s too late to back out. But that, apparently, is exactly the state of affairs with the standard Aes Sedai/Warder bond.
(I am not even going to bother getting into the later Asha’man/Aes Sedai bond shenanigans, because that is a whole separate bowl of weevils that I am not dealing with right now.)
And that’s to say nothing of what Moiraine is proposing to do here re: passing the bond around, which Lan is quite right to identify as denigrating to him in the extreme. Although (she admits, reluctantly) from a certain point of view this could be considered taking measures to save Lan’s life. Which, okay, but from there you get into a whole right-to-die quagmire that is subsequently short-circuited by the knowledge that if saving Lan’s life from broken bond berserker syndrome was the real priority, then all Moiraine had to do was release him from the bond entirely, and you’re right back to square one of your Consent Issues bingo card. Ugh.
To be continued, probably.
Hi, Vandene and Adeleas! Glad to know I don’t have to worry anymore about whether you’re Black Ajah (you’re not) or who will eventually murder you (Chesmal and Careane, respectively)! It’s nice when I know things.
Given that, I can’t remember if we ever found out who sent the Draghkar for Moiraine here, since it obviously wasn’t Adeleas or Vandene. I declared in the original commentary that it was Liandrin, but at this point I can’t recall whether I had anything to back that assertion up, or if I was just pulling it out of my ass for the LOLZ. I suppose it doesn’t matter much in the grand scheme of things, though.
I also declared in this commentary that we never got a POV from Lan, but that was completely incorrect even as of that writing, since Lan was a POV character in New Spring, which was published before I wrote the first Reread. Oops. Nevermind!
And that’s all for the nonce, comrades! Be well, and I’ll see you next Tuesday!
Well, yes, warder bonds. I’m sure it’s okay because Moiraine knew this little maneuver would give Egwene the political leverage she would need in the future to get stuff done? Yes, that’s it. No, black mail is not ethically questionable either…is it?
I’ve always assumed that it was Liandrin that ‘warded’ (do we know what this means? do we ever get a One Power explanation of this? Seems Forsaken/Dreadlords would use this a bit more often) the Draghkar, as the narrative seems to heavily imply this is the case. But, on the other hand, having this be heavily implied seems to be classic misdirection on RJ’s part, sneaky author that he is. Since we never get a further note on the subject, I guess we will have to go with it, but wouldn’t be interesting if Verin did it under orders from the BA circle? She too seemed to mysteriously leave the Amrylin Seat’s party suddenly and mysteriously. For a long time I thought this might be the case, with Liandrin as a decoy, but there never seems to be anything on it in the big reveal, so I guess Liandrin is it.
That does bring up the issue of how many, uhh..questionable, things Verin had to do over the years to maintain her “cover”. Sure she is sneaky and all, she would have found ways to carry out her orders with a minimum of damage, but at some point she would have had to do things that would not be a something you put on a resume.
Comparing Jordan’s WOT with Martin’s ASOIAF is lots of fun and I can’t resist putting in my two cents worth even though I’m not a scholar on either, nor do I read many other fantasy works (well, Tolkein, Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, and a few).
I seems clear to me that GRRM is the better writer – by that I mean he is better at wielding the language and at crafting a lead-up to a climax moment. He is a truly masterful writer, which I don’t really think RJ is.
But I think RJ chose to undertake a more difficult world-building task, and I think he succeeded quite well. By that, I mean that GRRM’s world is not all that different from our “actual” medieval European past, with (of course) some magic thrown in, and no strong RC church to unify it. RJ’s world is a much harder creation, IMO: a truly DIFFERENT world. He may have a unifying “church” (the White Tower) but it is FEMALE rather than male dominated. And he gives us (highly idealized perhaps) points-of-view of peasant society (the Two Rivers) as well as that of the nobility. (Martin occasionally brushes against peasant society as Arya makes her way north in disguise, but mostly it is nobility or the Wall.)
Anyway, it’s fascinating to compare/contrast the two series. At this point I can’t say which is my favorite, although the fact that one has “ended” while the other still tantalizes and offers multiple speculations about its end is important. I am currently more INTERESTED in Martin’s saga than WOT (which, as I have said on this thread before, ended more weakly than I was hoping it would – although I’m not sure how it could have ended differently.)
Oh hey, I’m on time for once! :D
I’ve only recently caught up with your ASOIAF read and I totally agree. The politics and behaviors aren’t very comparable and a lot of that has to do with history as we know it in the real world, and history as we know it in Randland and Westeros’ fictional worlds. Westeros doesn’t have an uber-police force of magical witches to enforce (relative) peace and non-violence among the noble families.
It’s interesting to note however that Seanchan, lacking a White Tower equivalent, has a story arc and culture that is a lot more similar to ASOIAF in tone as it’s been oft implied (and outright stated?) that Tuon has murdered or otherwise incapacitated her siblings in order to be the leading heir to the throne. There’s also the seriously WTF factor of Semirhage’s massacre of the entire Seanchan royal court, an event that probably made the Red Wedding look like a fist-fight at a tea party and had very ASOIAF implications for the continent of Seanchan i.e. a civil war with a multitude of factions. And hey, it happened right before the apocalypse too!
Although it’s worth pointing out that Arad Doman falls apart entirely over the course of the series, only to get back into a vague semblance of a nation during ToM (I think).
Oh man, The Bond and consent, those two things are… complicated. Rand and Alanna, Elayne and Birgitte, Pevara and Androl… three very different relationships with very different outcomes but very little consent all around to start. Perhaps that was Jordan’s point? I don’t even wanna talk about Myrelle until we get to that point… just… no, no no no nonnonononono.
I think he main difference between WoT and ASOIAF is that Jordan didn’t describe the bloodshed and rape as colorfully and detailed as Martin does. WoT is plenty bloody. Heck, most of the population is dead or dying by the end of the series, and most of the rulers are dethroned as well. Jordan for some reason seemed to have an issue shocking people by the end. like the Sea Folks’ tinkers (sorry – can’t remember their name off the top of my head) committing mass suicide. Jordan, if I remember correctly, thought it would be extremely shocking. Everyone shrugged…
Oh, and I can’t believe we didn’t mention the prophecies, although at this point I guess it seems pretty obvious, but can we all just LOL at the message meaning literally overhead.
Poking my head in per usual, to reply in greater length later: while it doesn’t make what she did any less skeevy in terms of consent issues, I always thought that it wasn’t just Moiraine trying to save Lan from Warder rage (and thus keep him around to help her/Rand/the Tower in the Last Battle), but because she’s already figured out about his romantic feelings and thus wants to keep him alive for Nynaeve. A lot less condemnatory and self-serving than her other motives. The fact Lan would refuse if he knew (because he thinks he’s going to die anyway, he even wants to thanks to the loss of Malkier, and he believes he and Nynaeve can never be happy anyway) doesn’t change the nobility of such a motive, especially at this point when Nynaeve is still at the height of her Moiraine hate and Moiraine could legitimately be expected to be focused on more important and pressing matters. Plus, she doesn’t even know yet about Lanfear and Cairhien, and she’s still making these preparations!
What Moiraine did (or the manner in which she did it) still is uncomfortable, but it’s a lot less clear-cut than it would appear on the surface. And the fact she did this in order to circumvent Lan’s “humility” as she describes it so accurately here, foreshadowing as it does the way Egwene and Nynaeve both do the same to get him to accept love and marriage rather than just doom and death, still has me grinning. I love Lan, but man does he ever need some ear-boxing and thumps on his wool-filled head.
Draghkar-warder = Liandrin. While it’s certainly possible Verin was forced to do it during the time between departing the Amyrlin’s group and catching up with the party pursuing the Horn, I don’t think Liandrin being the obvious culprit makes her a case of misdirection at all. Because while it’s true that Jordan very often used the obvious to misdirect us, he never did with Liandrin: she actually was as bad as she seemed upon first meeting, and the fact she turned out to be Black was such a gimme he didn’t even bother keeping the mystery going, revealing her allegiance later in this same book. So if she was exactly what she seemed, it stands to reason she really is the one who did the warding. (Otherwise, what else was she doing when she ran off? Well, aside from getting orders regarding Egwene and the Seanchan, but I got the impression that was a plan Ishamael came up with later, once he realized Egwene was actually a threat. And even then, no reason she couldn’t be doing both.) Not that I’d be upset if it turned out to be Verin, but Liandrin just feels more likely to me.
Any thoughts about what Moiraine found at Vandene and Adeleas’ re wolfbrothers. IIRC she tells Perrin in TDR that while at Vandene & Adeleas searching for other things, she tried to find something on wolfbrothers. I also believe she did not find much. But this implies something. I wonder what the “something” was.
Also, I believe that she found something in Vandene and Adeleas’ books that allowed her to learn (or complete the learning process for) the weave for balefire. When Moiriane first uses balefire, Moiraine comments that even knowing that weave might have resulted in her stilling in peaceful times. Moiriane’s comment makes it unlikely that an Aes Sedai or Accepted would find information in a book in the Tower Library allowing her to learn the weave for balefire.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
Re: Game of Houses / Game of Thrones
People forget to compare ASOIAF to the Empire trilogy, by Janny Wurtz and Raymond E. Feist, where the Game of the Council rules supreme. I think ASOIAF owes much more to the Empire trilogy than to WoT regarding viewing politics as a game (and in other situations, like a young female protagonist from a noble house in hard times having to try to re-establish it after all her family is killed).
@@@@@ 3 givemeraptors
The Empire of Tsuranuanni in the Empire trilogy has a council of very powerful wizards and still that did not stop all the backstabbing and veiled conflict between the different Houses. Even when the wizards tried to stop a full-out civil war by saying that anyone who did so would be blasted to smithereens in book 3 (with a terrifying example), that did not stop the politicking. It actually made some houses try to plot against them (like of our heroine, Mara of the Acoma).
Regarding if Wheel of Time is a medieval world
I never got the impression of the technology actually being much medieval. Most of the fashion, utensils, art and architecture seem more baroque or rococo to me (16th to 17th centuries). Only the Whitecloaks seem to wear fashion more attuned to the Knights Templar of the 12th century, all the others seem to wear fashion more akin to that seem in the Modern (pre French Revolution, but post fall of Byzantium) era of our world.
Which leads to the way wars are fought. People use gunpowder only for entertainment purposes until the 10th book. To kill people rely either on swords, lances, spears, daggers, bows, etc or One Power (Seanchan, Shara, etc). This would make it look medieval. Except that the armor people are described wearing (except whitecloaks) is more like the cuirass or breastplate of 16th century war rather than the chainmail, brigandine or full plate of late medieval era. When Jordan is describing the cavalry of the armies I get more of a Polish winged hussar vibe rather than the knights of the 100 Years War. No one is wearing a helm or using a shield, for example. But there are still lances, like there were in the 16th century.
Which leads to one of my beefs with the series. There was an arms race in late medieval Europe. People were inventing better and better armor to deal with all the dangerous swords, lances, pikes, halberds, etc in the battlefield. Armor was getting heavier and heavier, until the invention of the full plate. Full plate armor was awesome at offering protection from swords and stuff (you’d need a very good halberd to pry it open). Some battles in late medieval Italy went on for hours with very minimal casualties due to how good armor was getting to be. Until people invented the gunpowder, and the musket. Then all that full plate armor became useless in the battlefield again (the guy wearing it was very slow), and people started wearing less armor, since running away for cover and coming later to attack the guy with the musket while he was reloading was a better tactic against gunpowder weapons than wearing armor. That is why most cavalry units started wearing only cuirasses and stopped wearing full plate.
But in Wheel of Time, the cavalry is mostly wearing the cuirass or breastplate. No one is wearing full plate, even when this would be advantageous. Very few people are using even shields (we see the Legion of the Dragon using pavises later, but Davram Bashere’s cavalry is not described using their own form of cavalry shields, and they’re supposed to be heavy cavalry).
It’s something Jordan wanted. Most of the world at a technology level of 16th-17th century Europe or Ottoman lands, but no gunpowder. Except he didn’t translate well the different armor people were in time to how deadly the weapons were. The Defenders of the Stone shouldn’t be wearing the same armor as the Spanish conquistadores or tercios if there is no gunpowder weapons. It’d be more useful for them to wear the full plate of Reconquista armies then. Or at least put chainmail covering their arms and legs besides the breastplate. Chainmail > cloth for all the fights the Defenders will normally face.
I would have to disagree (politely, of course) with the suggestion that GRRM was a better writer than Jordan. I might have gotten frustrated at time with the endless and constantly multiplying plot lines in WOT, but I never found myself uninterested in what I was reading. In contrast, I’ve started Game of Thrones more than once and never even finished the first book. To me there’s never anything to look forward to in Westeros. The current situation is bleak and it’s only getting bleaker. The characters are as cold as the coming winter. There are other books I’ve started and not finished, but it’s a very short list (especially compared with all the books I do read). I’m not saying GRRM is a bad writer, because he’s most certainly not. But I think Jordan tells a better story.
@macster #6 – I agree. I always felt that Moraine did this as much for Nynaeve as for Lan. I wonder if at this point Jordan hadn’t decided that the bond could be released, or if that was something that he added later.
Great post as always Leigh, thanks. One thing I can’t figure out is if the warder bond can actually be completely released. I’m thinking it can’t because why didn’t Moiraine simply release Lan just before her battle with Lanfear and later; why couldn’t Rand have just forced Alanna to release him? Even Birgitte was resistant to the idea at first. Am I missing something from the books or is it simply for storyline purposes?
@8 I don’t have the expertise to go into much detail in response, but a few things jumped out at me.
1) Davram Bashere’s cavalry is light, not heavy. Whether that would indicate a lack of shields, I don’t know, because I haven’t studied it quite as much, but RJ does go out of his way in several places to note that Saldaeans are notoriously effective light cavalry.
2) The famous heavy cavalry are the Shienarans. Shienaran heavy cavalry do in fact wear plate, as seen in Tarwin’s Gap and elsewhere.
I think that Moiraine was genuinely trying to save Lan’s life by passing his bond to Myrelle. If we look back to New Spring, Lan’s default setting has always been to ride to the Blight and die avenging his fallen country. It’s likely that even had Moiraine chosen to simply release him from his bond instead, he’d still be on his way to his death the very next morning. Basically, Lan needed to be passed off to someone else because he wouldn’t survive very long on his own…not unlike a pet.
Yes, there’s the berzerker part of it, but Moiraine saved Lan’s live initially by MAKING him a warder. If she simply releases him he will just go back to trying to commit suicide-by-blight. Not that this does anything buy muddy the consent issue even more. It does bring up questions. Like, if you see someone trying to commit suicide, have you violated their free will if you stop them? What if stopping them requires distracting them while the cops come, etc? Consent isn’t always the most important issue in every discussion, in my opinion.
Re the warder bond:
I think @12 and @13 are right. In this case, I don’t think rape is the right metaphor for how Moiraine is using the Warder bond (now, eventually, Myrelle does use it that way, I think). By Compelling him to seek out Myrelle, she is essentially committing him to a one-Aes Sedai -run Mental Institute for Psychotic Warders, since he will have an over-riding death wish once the bond is broken.
The dialogue is clunky, but she does ask if he’d like to be released from his bond before and after she tells him about the compulsion.
DXCrozytrain @10: Yes, the Warder bond can be completely released. There are multiple references, but one is when Rand asks Alanna to release him, and she refuses out of her perception of the responsibility of Aes Sedai to their Warders. Note that she doesn’t tell him it’s impossible, she just doesn’t feel comfortable doing so.
So is there a difference in Moiraine transferring Lan’s bond versus Rand ordering the Shieldmaidens away from a battle rife with sorcery? Both were done with the intention of saving a life. I don’t understand how one is ambiguous and one is a clear violation of someone’s freedom of choice. Call it chivalry, nobility, or selflessness all you want, it still amounts to the same thing: I don’t like the choice your going to make so I’m going to make it for you. This shit happens again when Nynaeve forces Lan into promising he’ll accept companions when he asks to go to the borderlands. Try convincing him? Nah. Try talking to him? Psh. Lets just force him to make a promise under dures and straight up deceive him. The ends justify the means, right?
On the subject of Bashere’s armor, I always got the sense that RJ intended us to think of the Saldaean cavalry as more of a raiding force, like the Croats and Finns in the Thirty Years’ War. With the Blight, all the heavy plate is probably going to drag you down when weird things start happening. Also, if Trollocs can pierce armor and the armor is too heavy, that probably significantly increases one’s mortality.
The bigger question is how channeling changes warfare. Sure, there aren’t firearms, but there’s a magical weapon more dangerous than bullets. While Aes Sedai may not be able to directly kill with the Power, that hasn’t stopped the untrained, non-Wetlanders, and Dark-aligned people from using the Power to kill. I’m not surprised Randlanders value mobility in warfare.
@16 – I think so, yes.
In the event of an Aes Sedai’s death, the warder goes into a frenzy to kill all the evil in sight, and it almost always results in death. In other words, the warder goes insane. Insane (wild-eyed, frothing at the mouth insane) people generally aren’t considered to be able to give consent or be responsible for their actions. So, using the bond to compel Lan to Myrelle is a means of protecting Lan while he is bat-shit crazy. She tells him in advance, and offers to release the bond.
Maidens, on the other hand, have just as much agency to choose their battles as the other, male, Aiel societies. Personally, I wouldn’t run into battle against a channeler, but if you accept the male Aiel going into battle, you have to accept the women as well. Which is the point they made to Rand.
So, really, apples and oranges, at least in the case of Randland…
Nothing much to add but I loved Adeleas and Vandene. I liked the concept of two elderly sisters in seclusion (who are sorceresses) working on a book together and I loved how they came out of retirement on the eve of Armegeddon because, duh, it was the right thing to do – and they sided with Salidar! – and I hated how they died. Very much a let down. They deserved a glorious death in battle. #sadtrombone.
DRAGKHAR! *swoon*
I’d say Martin’s game of thrones involves plenty of “verbal barbs and covert scheming in gilded halls”…along with the depraved atrocities more often attributed to Darkfriends and Shadowspawn in Randland.
@6: For a moment, I read “Dragkhar-warder” as someone having a Dragkhar for a Warder. I’d be down with that. :-D
Egwene also releases whatshername at the very end, right before she dies. She had line of sight at the time; is that necessary to release the bond? Perhaps Moiraine (who had not been through the rings at this point) couldn’t have released Lan from afar.
Also, worth pointing out: Warder bonds confer certain very powerful advantages (speed, grace, quick healing, shadowspawn protection, dream protection, ability to give up sleep) that Moiraine can be pretty clear about Lan needing especially if she is dead.
It is strange that Adeleas and Vandene play village wisdom although AS don’t care much about healing herbs.
Why does Vandene talk about her age and Moiraine doesn’t react to it even in her thoughts?
The chapter icon shows what the answer Moiraine didn’t know she was looking for is about.
The Draghkar’s kiss sounds like a Dementor’s kiss. Did Rowling read WoT? The ogier who was caught by Machin Shin also sounds like a Draghkar’s victim. Did Machin Shin “eat” a Draghkar and acquire its powers?
The AS never consider that the Draghkar could have been shielded by a non-AS channeler although they have been talking about Forsaken and channeling false Dragons. They are probably right that it was a Black Ajah (Liandrin), but their blindness could be dangerous if an AS angers a Wilder.
Moiraine arranged to pass the bond before she met Ny.
Do the Warder advantages still apply after the AS died?
Will we reread the short story version of New Spring some time?
@2 “He is a truly masterful writer, which I don’t really think RJ is.” and @9
I would suggest that you go back and re-read the chapter in CoT in which Furyk Karede is introduced. Speaking of books we never made it through, the same friend who introduced me to WoT also tried to get me to read Wizard’s First Rule. I didn’t make it past the first chapter because the writer made a very clumsy attempt at convincing the reader that “this is a very important, powerful and badass character.” By the time CoT rolled around, I was also weary of the series’ sprawl (I enjoyed the book more on second read), and I remember distinctly reading that chapter and how Jordan set up Karede’s characterization and thinking “yep, Jordan’s still got it.”
So Jordan is absolutely a master. He’s one of two writers, along with Martin, who wrote a series that actually stood up under the weight of comparison to Lord of the Rings. That’s not something a writer who isn’t a master craftsman does. Of the three I feel that Martin surpassed the other two through the device of moral relativism. Both Tolkien and Jordan had entire sentient races that were evil by nature rather than by choice. Martin has so gleefully warped his villains into heroes that he’s fashioned whole new tropes in the process of trope subversion. It’s the absense of orcs or trollocs that are automatically “evil” that made GoT the series I’d been waiting to read since LotR.
To those that think what Moraine did was OK because Lan didn’t want a life of romance or ‘would have just run off and gotten himself killed without her’ I call B.S.
Flip the genders and this ask yourself if it’s OK for a man to tell a woman that she has no choice but to be another man’s husband. She doesn’t a say and she can’t even control her own body and try to run away, and when she finally gets to him, she is literally raped. Not figuratively not metaphorically. Actually raped. Because that’s what Myrelle did to Lan.
As for the transferring “saving him from madness?” Again, Bullshit. He arrived with eyes described as belonging to a corpse and covered in cuts and wounds because he literally walked the exact straightest path–including through active battlefields– to get to her. That’s a level of insanity on par with Rand at his worst.
Nothing Myrelle did in any way helped him. It was only when he got away from her acting on some small scrap agency he had left to go after Nyneave that he started to regain some sense of life.
Aes Sedi do a lot of shady things. So if Myrelle and Suian and Moraine felt they had to hide the fact his bond was traded around from them, you know it was far beyond the pale.
The argument I’m making @13 is not that what Moiraine did was right… its that we make choices and decisions that violate the free-will of other all the time, without giving it any thought at all. In many, many, many cases, the freedom to choose is merely an illusion, however much we try to pretend its not in western society. My point was that consent is not ALWAYS (not NEVER, either, but certainly not always) the most important factor in any given decision we make. Whether it should have been the most important factor in Moiraine’s decision is the question at hand. I don’t have an answer to that. But I recognize that we violate the consent of others in large and small ways just about every day in this society, and largely feel justified in those decision, especially regarding those we love.
In Moiraine’s case the stakes were especially high; the life of a man she loves. She can recognize that what she did violates him and still feel completely justified in taking the action. Whether we agree with her or not is another matter. Lan most certainly DIDN’T agree with her, and called her out on it, in this very scene, immediately.
@@@@@ 23 GRRM does have automatically “evil” races. The Others and wights slot nicely into Trolloc and Orc territory. As for the issues of morality in each series, my impression is that GRRM plays with moral relativism, and Jordan plays with moral ambiguity. They are related but not the same.
For example, this discussion regarding Moiraine, Lan, and the Warder bond. It can be said that Moiraine’s actions saved Lan’s life. Yet that method included emotional torture and rape. Moiraine chose not to release the warder bond when she knew she was going to “die”. Unlike an Aes Sedai whose manner of death is sudden, Moiraine had foreknowledge that falling into the ter’angreal would result in the loss of the Warder bond, thus driving Lan insane and even more suicidal than he already is. She still chose to have him suffer the loss of the bond while forcing him to Myrelle… who subsequently rapes him to make him better and–spoiler!!–it doesn’t. On the other hand, even setting aside the personal victories he achieves (R.I.P. Demandred), Lan’s presence in the Last Battle brought an entire army to the side of the Light and helped save the world. What Moiraine does, she does in the hope but not certainty that it is necessary to achieve this end i.e. save the world. This is what I would call morally ambiguous.
On the other hand, most characters in ASOIAF do what they do for personal gain, rarely or never for the greater good. Even many of the people along the Wall are there for personal reasons, not because they actually want to be, or care about, defending against the Others. Characters will cross moral event horizons and act in ways that are only mitigated by having someone else come along and be even more horrible. Congratulations, your choice of allies may include a rapist, a torturer, and a child murderer. GRRM’s morality hinges much more on “the lesser of eleventy million two evils”. This is what I would call moral relativism.
givemeraptors @@@@@ 26: Leaving aside the rightness or wrongness of Moiraine’s action re Lan’s bond, do we know she did, in fact, have foreknowledge of her “death” taking Lanfear with her through the redstone doorway at that time? Did that come from her test for Aes Sedai or the trip through the doorway in Tear or her trip into Rhuidean? And I believe she stated in her letter to Rand that even then she was not positive which outcome would transpire.
BillinHI,
It was from her trip into Rhuidean. IIRC, probably the most specific thing Moiraine took from this was the confrontation at the docks with Lanfear.
Overall, I agree with the posts @@@@@ 12, 13, and 14. And with the follow up of anthonypero @@@@@ 25.
Re: Lan’s situation specifically- the guy’s wishes which Moiraine, Nyneave, etc., acted against didn’t develop in a vacuum. Lan adopted his suicidal mission to the Blight, and then became a Warder with a risk of becoming suicidal berserker, because of events that happened contrary to his wishes or control. You know, the DO wanting to destroy the world, wiping out his country, and all that.
If Moiraine simply released him from the bond this would have been one more victory for the DO.
@27 At this point, her preparations are in anticipation of an unexpected death, something akin to the draghkar ambush that closes the chapter. She learns of her fate in Rhuidean. We could probably speculate for days about whether she could have changed her arrangements during their time in Cairhien, and even longer about whether she would have wanted to if she could, but she did have the option to release Lan from his bond before plunging through the doorway. As we see in aMoL it is possible to release someone without needing direct contact.
macster @6
The problem with the whole Moiraine doing what she did to save Lan for Nynaeve is…. she didn’t even know Nynaeve at the time. Her arrangement with Myrelle was created before she came to the Two Rivers and long before she knew Nynaeve. The best justification I can come up with is that Moiraine wasn’t sure if she would have the opportunity to release him when her time came. The search for the Dragon Reborn had after all always been fraught with danger. It’s either that or, and this is crazy theory time, the Warder bond is incredibly addictive. That’s why the sudden death of the Aes Sedai drives them nuts. Maybe Moiraine didn’t trust Lan to remain stable. Even if it’s not full on Warder rage, it’s not as if Lan’s default mode was not already suicidal.
AndrewHB @7
As far as we are shown, the Balefire weave seems incredibly intuitive. A good chunk of our main characters were able to create it by instinct.
Ryamano @8
Good points. Although I’d point out that Jordan does in fact describe helmets in great detail. From the insect-shaped Seanchan ones to the Mayener rimmed pots. Also, as others point out, Saldaeans are light cavalry, while it is Sienarans who are considered heavy cavalry. Agreed though that light chainmail or padded leather ought to be more common.
birgit @22
Moiraine was considerably stronger in the One Power than Vandene. So on top of being younger, she can expect to have a longer lifespan over all. Ate probably just wasn’t that much of a consideration to Moiraine, given she likely considers herself as having a target painted on her due to her quest.
On the Warder bond:
Alanna does eventually release Rand, but this is in the far future(book 13). Alanna had been under pressure right from the start to release the bond or transfer it to somebody more stable. Just typical Aes Sedai stubbornness that she didn’t do it earlier.
alreadymadwithWarders @30. I disagree. IIRC, the only female character we see create it by instinct is Nynaeve (when she, Elayne, and Egwene attack the Eyeless during the fight in TDR (before they reach Tear). Egwene and/or Elayne remember the weave from what Nynaeve did and they in turn are able to show Nynaeve (and whichever of the two did not remember Nynaeve’s original weave). I think it is clear that Cadsuane independently learned the weave; although I believe she never personally used it). Other than Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve, I do not recall any female member of Team Light using Balefire.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
AndrewHB @31
Actually I also had Rand in mind. So Rand, Nynaeve and Moiraine, plus possibly Cadsuane and Verin, learning it by instinct or accident or independent study. That’s five out of what, eight?
Lurking…and enjoying the discussion about moral relativism v. moral ambiguity in epic fantasy speculative fiction.
@26 “The Others and wights slot nicely into Trolloc and Orc territory.”
How do we know the Others are evil? We’re not privy to what their worldview or agenda might be. Can we be certain the wights are automatically evil (does this discussion veer toward spoilers?). Interesting re: RJ’s moral ambiguity.
It is strange that AS talk about age because age and OP strength are taboo topics among AS.
Disclosure: About Robert Jordan versus GRRM, Westeros versus Randland, etc, I haven’t read GRRM’s full oeuvre; I’ve read the full WOT. I started reading A Feast for Crows, but never got finished before I had to return it to the library from which I had borrowed it.
But the impression I got, the very strong impression I received, was that GRRM had modeled the characters on, or taken them from, Shakespeare’s Histories and Tragedies.
Robert Jordan’s sources are rather more diverse.
@35 Birgit
Eh, many older men and women tend to lose social filters and talk about taboo topics all the time in real life. No reason it should be any different for little these little old fictional ladies.
I suppose once you’ve reached a certain point in your life, you just stop caring what other people think and say whatever you want to. Being “retired” probably helps too.
And the fact that they all were either hermits or outcasts.
@34 I’m not sure where it would fall in spoiler territory. Suffice it to say that they fill the spot until GRRM says otherwise.
@36 I hadn’t thought about it that way, but I think you’re on to something with their sources of inspiration.
@32 I’m not sure Verin knew the weave for balefire. Did I miss the part where she thinks she knows it, I’m pretty sure she never uses it. Also I don’t recall Elayne or Egwene ever learning balefire. Sure, they were present when Nyneave first used it, but they were rather busy at the time and I don’t think we ever have it confirmed that they picked it up. The only Team Light people I’m sure knew Balefire were Rand (and whatever Asha’man he taught), Mo. & Nyneave. I’m not even sure if it is confirmed that Cads knew the weave, though she certainly knew of it, as she reprimands Rand for using it.
Trying to catch up after vacation, and enjoying both the analysis of Martin vs. Jordan, as well as of the issues regarding the Warder bond and ‘passing’ it. Perhaps if we didn’t know about Myrelle’s proclivities with ‘sexual healing’, it would seem a little more palatable – still going against his wishes of course, but perhaps justifiably so (or at least a little easier to swallow) in Moiraine’s view to ‘take care of him’. Condescending? Sure, but that seems to come with the territory.
At the very least, I know Tolkien himself was very bothered by the problem with Orcs until the end of his life…there are several writings of his where he wrote and rewrote their origins and was still trying to hammer it out, as his theology didn’t really allow for inherently evil beings. And I don’t think Tolkien’s work is as simplistic as people say at times; it just ends on a more optimistic note even though many of the heroes DO make mistakes or the wrong choices. But he still believed life on earth was basically isolated victories amidst a ‘long defeat’. But I enjoy all 3 authors for different reasons (Tolkien is my absolute fave though).
gadget @40: I don’t have time to do a complete search, but in AMoL, Aviendha’s PoV says “No, she didn’t dare use balefire.” That clearly implies that she knows the weave, and Elayne’s the only reasonable source for that. Logain starts to weave balefire but stops, right before his moment of clarity. Egwene’s conversation with the Wise Ones in Tel’aran’rhiod clearly impies that multiple people on Team Light know the weave, since Egwene feels the need to decide to emphasize to the Aes Sedai that it must not be used.
So, by the end it appears that a large number of people on Team Light know the weave.
Moiraine’s motive in making this arrangement with Lan always seemed suspect to me. Well, perhaps not during the first few re-reads – then it was just part of Aes Sedai inscrutability. But after a while it seems a bit contrived – as if Jordan needed to tell us about this arrangement, before News Came to Cairhien, but just didn’t have a good point in time to do it – a point in time in which Moiraine has a good motive, but is still near Myrelle.
Perhaps there was a viewing involved? If Min had reported that she saw seven towers dancing around Nynaeve’s head, that would give Moiraine a reasonable motive to make these arrangements. But I don’t remember such a viewing.
Since I don’t have anything really to say on Daes Dae’mar vs. the Game of Thrones (both because I haven’t read Martin’s books and because I pretty much agree with Leigh on what is appropriate for WOT and what makes the two different), I’ll just add that as much as realistic bloodthirsty politics can be fun, I probably prefer the more subtle and clever cloak-and-dagger kind in WOT. And that I will always laugh (even as I find it so true to life!) that Rand not only stumbles into the Game of Houses, but that he manages to become caught up in it (and thought to be a master of it) either by doing nothing, saying he wasn’t interested/involved, or stating the simple, honest truth. The first two convinced the Cairhienin that he was like them, feigning disinterest/involvement when he was actually secretly plotting all manner of things, while the third was a case of not taking what he said at face value because they could never believe it was that simple.
I laugh (albeit ruefully) because, as I said, how often is it in life that people are thought to be sneakier/cleverer, or to be plotting and scheming when they actually aren’t? (I’m reminded of the common counter given to those who spin conspiracy theories, that the various agencies, groups, and governments of the world are too bogged down in bureaucracy, internal rivalries, and rules, or just plain too incompetent/floundering/lacking in sophistication and skill to be able to pull off the plots being attributed to them. To which the theorists respond, “That’s what they want you to think!” Such a Daes Dae’mar answer.)
Anyway, the Cairhienin’s befuddlement by Rand’s “backwoods lord persona” aside, I was always happy to see Thom’s flute turning up again, as a reminder of the time in TEotW when he was teaching Rand and Mat to be gleemen’s apprentices, and showing how much that time (and Thom) meant to Rand even now. The flute becomes even more fraught with emotion and symbolism as the series progresses, but for now, it’s a great detail that brings poignancy to Rand’s arc. It’s also great how he insists on playing peasant tunes, something that probably made Hurin feel even more loyal to and appreciative of “Lord Rand”, and Lanfear’s completely annoyed, frustrated, and confused reaction to all this is hilarious. Like the Cairhienin, she’s surely trying to figure out what Lews Therin’s game is, what he’s up to, because she still doesn’t realize yet that she needs to treat him as Rand first.
It’s also typical of her to hurt that poor innocent serving girl, just to get out of revealing her name and being able to excuse herself from the table. The way she escapes the inn without Caldevwin and his men seeing her is all the proof we need, if we didn’t have some already, that Selene is more than what she seems. (Side note: I always found it odd that Caldevwin never showed up again in the series. Considering the number of bit players from the first two or three books who kept cropping up again, you’d think he would have too.)
Final point: obviously it’s because of the flute (and to some degree, Daes Dae’mar since we eventually find out he’s a master of it), but the fact the chapter icon was the harp was a nice red herring on Jordan’s part–we’d been trained to recognize the importance of certain icons, like Moiraine’s staff, so seeing the harp would lead us to believe Thom would show up. He doesn’t…only for Jordan to double-subvert it by having him show up in Cairhien itself instead. Clever author.
The chapter with Vandene and Adeleas: so sad-making, knowing what’s going to happen with them, and how their history will probably never be finished, unless it was left with Elayne and she gave it to other Browns in the Tower. But at least they had their parts to play in Tarmon Gai’don, not just in Ebou Dar and Caemlyn but how they help Moiraine right here. I do wonder how it is she knew of them…my guess is Verin.
What’s interesting about Vandene’s theory is that while she’s quite right about Rand and Falme, at the moment her suggestion the Dragon could appear in Arad Doman or Saldaea has the added benefit of possibly referring to Taim. Even though we know who the real Dragon Reborn is, this is a clever way for the truth to be hidden from Randland at large until the end of this book.
The glimpse into Moiraine and Lan’s past is also different in hindsight, though more fun once we see what actually happened in NS.
Nice double meaning title: referencing both the Watchers Over the Waves and that the Shadow and its spies and creatures (the Draghkar, Liandrin) are watching Moiraine.
Re: Warder bonds and consent–I generally have to agree, although I suppose the fact that, secret ability to compel notwithstanding, the rarity of it being invoked and how much distaste most sisters have for it do act somewhat as mitigating factors on prospective Warders not knowing about it. However, even if it’s something that hasn’t been used in centuries and if ever used in modern times would only be in extreme and desperate circumstances, they still should be told the possibility is there.
@1 gadget: All too true, sadly. Which is why in TGS Verin told Egwene it would require a special kind of redemption to save her soul.
@@.-@ FSS: The Amayar.
@7 AndrewHB: While it’s possible Moiraine learned it somewhere else, I always thought she learned it in Adeleas and Vandene’s library too. Though of course we also don’t know what she was doing between here and Falme… It is also interesting to speculate what if anything more she learned of wolfbrothers.
@9 Nick31: The very phrasing Moiraine uses there is part of why the fandom speculated for so long about Warder bonds and whether they could be released, and your theory is certainly possible based on it. Of course her words can be taken to mean “when he asked, she would have to find some other way to dissuade him, since she couldn’t release the bond” just as well as “when he asked, she could release him and so had to decide if she would.” But whatever Jordan may have decided at the time, it’s clear later that the bond can be released–it just hasn’t been done in a long time, few know about it (or how to do it), and the situations where it’s brought up all involve an Aes Sedai saying she won’t or even refusing to do so. But that’s all a moot point if the bond can’t even be undone (i.e. no point bringing it up if it isn’t even possible), so yes, it can.
@10 DXCrazytrain: Alanna seemed to imply she could, she just wouldn’t. Elayne doesn’t know how, in fact she only knows how to make the bond in the first place by watching an Aes Sedai do it when she wasn’t supposed to be. Pevara said she could have released Androl, but she wouldn’t because it was in retaliation for what he did–and he didn’t know how to undo his version. As for Moiraine, I am guessing she doesn’t know how to undo it either. That and if she intended him to still be a Warder after she was gone, and specifically Nynaeve’s Warder…not to mention his whole death-seeking-in-the-Blight mentality.
@16 juanito: There is a difference between letting someone go into battle, where they might die, but in the meantime can act and fight bravely on their own terms, and letting someone go off on a guaranteed suicide mission that won’t do the Light any good. Admittedly there is some semantics involved, and the issue is a bit muddy, but personally I can’t help agreeing that letting the Maidens fight as they wish is right, but stopping one man from throwing his life away needlessly (when he is in fact too stubborn and tunnel-visioned to be persuaded or reasoned with) is also right.
@20 AeronaGreenjoy: …creepy. O_O
@21 SunDriedRainbow: Very good point. And gah, I completely forgot about Egwene and Leilwin.
@22 birgit: I think it’s clear Jordan hadn’t worked out yet about the Aes Sedai pecking order and age taboo. I also agree the Draghkar does rather sound like a dementor. And the idea of Machin Shin devouring a Draghkar is disturbing.
True, but she could easily have arranged it at first in order to keep Lan alive, with his Warder abilities, and not running off into the Blight, and after meeting Nynaeve and seeing her and Lan get close decided she has another more selfless reason to save him.
@24 wcarter: Might want to dial back the venom there a bit. And I at least never said I think what Moiraine did was completely right and good. I just think that it’s also wrong to completely denounce it and accuse her of being a nasty, selfish, arrogant Aes Sedai. The issue is complicated, and while what she did and how are skeevy, the fact she has other motives besides just keeping him around to fight the Shadow, and that these motives are at least nominally for his benefit, is important to note. It doesn’t make what she did right, but it does make it a bit more understandable, IMO.
@25 anthonypero: Well said.
@27 BillinHI: All she knew was that she saw nothing for herself after the docks; whether that meant death or because she would be trapped in Sindhol where the rings could not see her choices or fate, she didn’t know. At least that was how I interpreted her letter. The one she sent to Mat was similarly uncertain about the future, since she knew they could rescue her, they could get captured, they could all die, only some of them might die…there were a lot of variables. All she seemed to know about Cairhien was that “people would think her dead”; whether or not she would be, she knew the possibility existed, which was why her having prepared this with Myrelle long in advance became so critical to her hopes for the future.
@30 alreadymad: As I said to birgit, just because she made the preparations with Myrelle some time before doesn’t preclude her wanting to save him now for the additional reason of his growing love for Nynaeve. I don’t see why she couldn’t have been trying to save his life for his own sake, as well as to help keep working against the Shadow, and then later upon learning of him and Nynaeve deciding that she additionally wanted to make sure they could be together after her “death.” She says in her letter to Rand after going through the doorway that she hopes one day Lan will forgive her for what she did, but also that he would “bless her for it.” I don’t think that really describes him just getting to keep living, what with him being a death seeker and all. But getting to be with Nynaeve? Yeah, he’d consider that a blessing. A miracle, even.
@32, 40: No, I don’t recall Verin ever saying or implying that she knew balefire. Same with Cadsuane, though yes she certainly knew of it. As for Egwene and Elayne, the latter never uses it or shows she knows how, but Egwene does–she is about to use it against Taim in the Last Battle before she comes up with the Flame of Tar Valon. But clearly she learned it from watching Nynaeve, not independently or instinctively.
@@.-@2 bad_platypus: I can only guess that Egwene taught the Aiel Wise Ones, since they certainly couldn’t have learned it from Rand, and neither Elayne nor Nynaeve interacted with them enough. Not sure about who taught the other Aes Sedai, but it seems very likely someone did, rather than them just spontaneously learning it.
@@.-@3 JonathanLevy: From TEotW: “Seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.” Jordan claimed all of Min’s viewings are of the future, not the past. And we know she must have told Moiraine at least some of what she saw, since she knows things about Thom she otherwise wouldn’t and I think some or all of the Superboys too. So yes, she could have known of Lan’s future and wanted to make sure it came to pass.
macster @44:
It strikes me as more likely that the Wise Ones learned it from Aviendha, who most likely learned it from Elayne. At any rate, the important point is that clearly a large number of people on Team Light knew balefire by the end of the series.
Wait a minute, Moiraine couldn’t have learned balefire here because doesn’t she use it against the Darkhounds in tEotW?
givemeraptors@@@@@ 46: That’s in TDR, Chapter 44.
I’d wait for a Thom or Moiraine PoV until even hoping to make a comparison of Game of Houses to Game of Thrones. It certainly isn’t bloodless in Tear and if you read between the lines definitely wasn’t in Carhien until recently, and probably isn’t still.
There’s plenty to be said about the type of governments in Randland vs the explicitly Feudal Westeros (the other continents do different things). Just not the type of thing we’ll probably ever see Leigh get into.
Moiraine knew her passing was coming very soon; she did not release Lan for the reasons stated above, that he would go die at the Gap, I think she also took into account that Nynaeve would be Aes Sedai very shortly and that due to their relationship it was only right that Lan be her Warder.
Re: Lan, releasing him from the bond prevents broken-bond-berserker-syndrome, but it doesn’t prevent his penchant for seeking death in the Blight, which pre-existed the bond, from reasserting itself. Especially if the Nynaeve situation were to go in the “oh god I could go to her now but only a selfish idiot would let that happen so I need to die to fix that permanently” direction instead of, you know, rationally.
That said, Compulsion-for-your-own-good is squicky, but on the gripping hand, Randland doesn’t have courts to take away someone’s autonomy if they are a danger to themselves or others — but if anyone knows whether Lan can be trusted not to commit suicide, it’s gotta be Moiraine at this point.